Me: I understand you are upset—
Person: I am NOT upset! I just DON’T understand why they would DO that! And without consulting me! No one does that! THEN I come to find out about THIS!
Me: Well, we talked about it, remem---?
Person: No, YOU didn’t talk about it—not with ME. We NEVER talked about it! This is something I NEEDED to know about, and you NEVER said anything…
Me: Mmm.
I retreated to the non-committal grunt, because the other person was not having this conversation to obtain information from me, or discuss the issue with me—they wanted to rant at me. And there is no gain trying to have a rationale conversation when a person is in such a mood.
I happened upon another such conversation. Let me set the scene…
Thursday, Dr. Russell Moore was guest hosting on Dr. Mohler’s radio program. The topic was Michael Dowd’s book Thank God for Evolution. From what I could gather, an attempt to marry the theory of Evolution with the theology of Christianity. Of course, Dr. Moore was having none of that!
And at one point Dr. Moore opined Rev. Dowd’s book was actually leading people away from Christianity. This prompted “Ash,” a deconvert from Florida, to call in. Ash admitted he had not heard the entire program, but had heard the comment regarding evolution leading people away from Christianity. Ash stated among all the deconverts he knew, evolution was very rarely the reason for a person to deconvert.
[As a note, I would have to agree with Ash. While the study of science and realization of the mischaracterization of evolution by Christianity has certainly lead to some deconverts, it would be a very distinct minority.]
Now this could have lead to an interesting discussion. Dr. Moore could have asked a number of questions:
“What IS the primary cause of a person to deconvert?”
“Why ISN’T evolution a primary cause?”
“Do you think, as an atheist, evolution can be married to Christianity?”
And so on. Instead, Dr. Moore engaged in the following conversation:
Dr. Moore: Why did you embrace atheism?
Ash: [after discussing how everyone is an atheist toward some God, Zeus, Allah, etc.]….For me it was the lack of evidence.
Dr. Moore: I think it was more than that, Ash; and I going to pray you’ll come to know the god that reveals his glory through Jesus Christ. But I think your issue is the same as mine was and the same Michael Dowd’s is, and the same as the Apostle Paul said his was before that Damascus road. I think you know there’s a god, I think you know there is certain fiery expectation of judgment. I just think exactly as the Apostle John says, “The light comes into the world and the men hate the light and they love the darkness” and why? Because their deeds are evil and they want to cover it over…
The issue isn’t evidence. The issue instead is exactly what Paul is talking about in Romans chapter one, “Although they knew God as God they would not honor him or give thanks.” That’s the issue. So what do they do? They turn to the Creation instead of the Creator…
Need I point out how condescending and rude this remark is? I think not! When Dr. Moore asked the question, “Why did you embrace atheism?”—he was not interested in Ash’s answer. He wanted to engage in useless pontification as to all the reasons Dr. Moore was quite certain atheists are atheists. (And apparently the reason for evolution, too—so we can sin!)
Think about the statement, “The issue isn’t evidence.” It isn’t? All those apologists like Dr. Craig, and J.P. Moreland and Lee Strobel and Dr. Plantinga must be quite surprised their books and articles and websites and debates are all for naught. The next time Dr. Habermas is debating another philosophy professor regarding the resurrection of Christ, according to Dr. Moore, he need not bother with such silly notions as evidence, or the New Testament writings, or the actions of the people of the time. Oh, my no! All Dr. Habermas need say is, “The reason you {insert Professor’s name here} don’t believe is that you want to Sin, Sin, Sin! I do not need to show an ounce of evidence—you need to stop sinning!”
Dr. Metzger, Dr. Wallace, Dr. Ehrman. Textual Criticism? Waste of time. The reason we know Dr. Ehrman is wrong, is because he wants to sin. Drs. Wallace and Metzger do (did) not. Don’t you see?
Why is it when Christians want to talk about the reasons they believe, they love to drag out the “evidence” of the alleged eyewitness testimonies, the archeological facts which refer to events in the Bible, or non-Christian writings regarding Christians in the first Century? Yet when we want to inspect such evidence, we are told we aren’t rejecting it because of our study—oh, no! We are rejecting it because of our secret desire to keep our pimp hand strong.
The reality is that humans are complicated creatures. We don’t all march to one tune. There is no “one thing” that persuades all humans. Some Christians believe because of evidence; some non-Christians believe for the same reasons. Some Christians believe because of an emotional experience; same is true for non-Christians. Some Christians believe because of moral implications; same is true for non-Christians.
For the Christian, imagine this, if you can. What if they discovered a First Century authenticated copy of Matthew in which Jesus says it is acceptable to divorce your spouse for any reason? Yes, it would turn textual criticism on its ear—but more importantly would every Christian rush right out and get a divorce?
Of course not! Most would stay married because they are married to their spouse for MORE than just the reason that divorce is a sin. Things like commitment, love, a genuine desire to be married to the other person, the detriments of divorce, children, social stigma, etc.
It is absolutely ridiculous to make the claim the ONLY reason Christians stay married is that divorce is a sin. The same way it is equally ridiculous the ONLY reason people reject Christianity is to sin. I didn’t have any desire to obtain a new lifestyle of pillaging small villages, so “Christianity had to go.” Quite the contrary—I desired with my whole-heart to keep Christianity! It had nothing to do with sin. The same way we desire to keep our marriages—it has nothing to do with the concern of “sin” of divorce—we do it because we want our marriage!
Likewise, the statement, “…I think you know there is certain fiery expectation of judgment” is truly inane. Do you know why people don’t murder? Because they don’t want to go to jail. Why they don’t swipe items from the store? Because they don’t want to go to jail. Why people stop at a stop light at 2 in the morning when they can clearly see for miles around there isn’t a blooming car in sight? Because they don’t want a ticket.
Punishment is a strong motivator.
This past year my oldest daughter received a two-day involuntary vacation from school. (I.e.—a suspension.) When questioned, she said, “I couldn’t help it. I reached my breaking point.” I explained to her when her parents were done punishing for the offense—she would amazingly discover she had a much higher breaking point than she realized. That her “breaking point” will reach new heights so when she was faced with a similar situation she would think, “No, this is not worth it, because my punishment will be more pain than the momentary pleasure.”
Some of us drive over the speed limit. Why? Because the punishment (a ticket) is not severe enough to cause us to not. If they started to impose Capital Punishment for speeders—we would stop!
Why do we slow down when we see a police officer on the side of the road? Because we “know” we are in danger of getting a ticket. Who has the guts to blow past an officer at 100 miles per hour, thinking they won’t get caught?
Imagine knowing the punishment of fire. Of burning alive. Of sheer, excruciating pain covering our entire body, from the top of head, to our armpits, to our delicate parts, down to our toes. Of the inside of your throat swallowing boiling tar. Imagine that for 30 seconds. For a minute. For a half an hour. We can’t even exercise for a half-an-hour; let alone endure such torture!
If we really “knew” such judgment was coming—don’t you think we would do everything in our power to avoid it? Let alone an eternity of it! Pick one or the other. It is curious we are told we are so selfish we refuse to acknowledge a God because we want to sin; if we were that selfish, wouldn’t we do everything we could for our own comfort? And highest on that list would be to avoid hell!
Even though there is the possibility of becoming rich, we don’t steal from banks because of the punishment; we certainly aren’t going to reject what we “secretly” know is true in order to commit some perceived sin when the punishment is far more terrible. Besides, as Christians, we are informed due to our sin nature, we will continue to sin anyway and will be forgiven. What is the point of giving up Christianity to sin, when we don’t have to give up Christianity to sin?
I “hate the light”? Bwahahahaha. Explain why every single pastor I have discussed my deconversion will be “getting back to me.” If it is me, the darkness, “running from the light” it sure is odd how the light won’t call me back. Every Christian leader I talked to—I’m waiting to get back to me. My entire Christian family—no response to me e-mails on the topic. The church I attended, “We don’t really have a place for you.”
This “darkness” is extremely amused to be told I am running from the light. No, that is the light running from me, and from their perspective and speed, it only looks as if the widening distance is my fault.
I am less inclined to continue such conversations. You want to state I didn’t believe in Christ as Savior and God with the same intensity as “true Christians”? Useless conversation. You want to claim the Bible as authoritative, but don’t even know the history of its formation? Fine, we can learn together. However it becomes a useless conversation when you say, “The Bible says it; I believe it; that settles it.”
You want me to read Christian authors (many of whom I already have) but you are not interested in reading scientists? Useless conversation.
I know we are so caught-up on the web, we feel we HAVE to point out every wrong. Every error. Thus assuring the longevity of useless conversations.