The popular non-believing writers of Dawkins, Hitchens and Harris propose we would have a better world if Christianity as a belief went the way of the belief of child sacrifice to make crops grow.
Should I, as an atheist, be actively attempting to wipe out Christianity?
I struggle with this. I do see good in Christianity. I see a moral system that makes many people act better than they would without it. How many (million) times have we heard, “If I was an atheist, I would murder, rape, rob, pillage and steal”? Please, if you believe this way, Stay A Theist!
I see the chance to provide charity (regardless of the motive) and the convenience of weekly opportunity literally being passed before one’s wallet. I see a social camaraderie, a oneness of purpose, a desire to be better humans, all hanging on a person’s Christianity.
And really, there are many, many beliefs I think are “wrong” that I am not actively petitioning against. So what if a group of people want to believe some guy who died 2000 years ago is still alive and looking down on them when they masturbate.
But on the other hand…
I also see the hate. I see the division. I see the claim of superiority because “God choose them” and not me. I see the justification for harm, particularly towards minorities. (Women, African Americans in the past, and homosexuals now.)
And…let’s face it…I am firmly convinced they are wrong. Jesus didn’t resurrect. The Bible is not any more divine than the list of ingredients on my potato chip bag. There is no “Father, Son and Holy Ghost.”
But on the other hand…
Can we really rip Christianity from people’s lives and expect them to be “just fine.” I had Christianity ripped from mine, and I cannot claim it as a pleasant experience. I do not recall a single deconvert referring to it as a “breeze.” It hurts. It is painful. And while it made me a better person…would it everybody? Are there people who are barely holding on to the threads of morality by fear of hell? If we could absolutely prove Christianity 100% wrong and did so—would the world be better 20 years from now? 50 years from now? (Or would we all be speaking Arabic?!)
I swing back and forth on this. Some days I wish Christianity were eliminated by the harm it has caused. Some days I am glad it still exists for the little good it provides.
Does the harm outweigh the benefit? What do you think—should Christianity be wiped out?
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I too think of such things from time to time.
ReplyDeleteI don't believe there are many at all who are truly "hanging on to the threads of morality by fear of hell". The people who make the "if I was an atheist, I would..." claim, I don't believe they're being honest. They're not saying that because it's true, but because it's convenient for them to believe it.
I sometimes think of the (true) prison inmate conversion, where someone has a self-image that's been shot-to-hell, and the only way that they could accept themselves and begin life completely fresh, is believing that their old self has "died" and they've been made into a "new creature". There is very powerful psychological imagery bound up in all that, and I expect that it's a part of why Christianity is so widespread. There are countless stories of people coming from a "life of sin", finding freedom and newness in their newfound life in Christ. So much so, that they've become cliché.
And, of course, that newly-freed (in an abstract sense) prison inmate then turns around and feels compelled to shove his answer down the throats of those who have less need of it... :\
Another reason I think Christianity has spread, which also bears on this topic, is the very rare but oft-imitated, acts of truly selfless kindness. I've experienced them, and I expect you've probably encountered it yourself, DagoodS. I suspect that an inexplicably selfless act of kindness from an atheist will rarely convert someone to atheism; "just because" is a far less satisfying answer than "because God loves you, and it's what Jesus would've done".
Of course, the third reason I think Christianity has been able to become so widespread, as with many religions, which has nothing whatever to do with the topic at hand, is that so many children have little opportunity to avoid its influence throughout their most formative years...
Anyway, I have little interest in hearing people talk about wiping out Christianity. Would I like to see Christianity gone from the face of the earth? Hell yes. But Christianity (and other such things) is the symptom, not the problem itself. Our problem is the underlying inability to separate out our human emotions and biases from our reasoning processes; and the difficulty in recognizing self-deception, particularly when they are the handiest resolutions to cognitive dissonances. If we remove Christianity but fail to address the severe flaws in human reasoning, it will simply be replaced by something at least as destructive.
It's not physically possible that everyone will magically disbelieve in Christianity in a single day, or even a single generation.
ReplyDeleteWith all good luck (and assuming that 5 billion people don't drown or starve in the next few decades) we can work to gradually diminish the effects of superstition and religious authoritarianism over the next century or so. Plenty of time for people to adapt.
Let us have the truth, whatever it is, at any cost.
ReplyDeletePlenty of time for people to adapt.
ReplyDeleteYou'd think so, wouldn't you? Unfortunately, the last couple hundred years (at least) have been filled with people who have been similarly hopeful that such superstitions would be lost in such time, and who have been posthumously disappointed.
I'm afraid it will take much, much longer. I am even somewhat afraid that it may even be an uphill battle against evolution; that there may be selective advantages to believing certain things that are untrue.
"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter... But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors." Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to John Adams.
Voltaire is credited as having boasted that Christianity would cease to exist within 20 years. I have found no credible source for this yet (I'd be grateful if someone would provide one), only scores of gleeful Christians, quick to point out how wrong he was. Still, I'm sure he and others of his time wished it to be true, and would be distressed at how much further it has to go.
Let us have the truth, whatever it is, at any cost.
Indeed, jennypo, indeed.
I do see good in Christianity. I see a moral system that makes many people act better than they would without it.
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Some days I am glad it still exists for the little good it provides.
I'm a little confused. I'd like to find the approximate dollar amount of Christian charity worldwide. I do not think its a little number.
I appreciate your honesty though in admitting that others have found self-improvement within Christianity. I was a useless person before coming to Christ. Sure I was "good", but my life was circular and my relationships were all bumpy. To me its like night and day.
Every complaint about Christianity seems to center around some corruption of it. If all people truly lived the life that Jesus called them to, would the world be at war or at peace? If it would be at peace, why then would you want to get rid of Christianity?
I'd like to find the approximate dollar amount of Christian charity worldwide. I do not think its a little number.
ReplyDeleteSo what? First, the absolute number is irrelevant. What's relevant is the comparison: how does Christian charity compare to secular charity?
Do government programs for the general welfare count? If so, then the vastly more secular European democracies do a far better job of taking care of their most vulnerable citizens than the Christianist United States.
Do Christian "charities" count when the lion's share of the donations go to the lavish lifestyles of the leaders? When the remainder goes primarily to proselytization and indoctrination?
I was a useless person before coming to Christ.
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." -- George Bernard Shaw
Sure I was "good", but my life was circular and my relationships were all bumpy.
Some of us like having bumpy relationships, we like confronting challenges. I'm sorry that you yourself are too cowardly to face life as it is, to grow and change in unexpected ways, and instead have frozen your mind in an unassailable, hermetic fantasy world. What a tragic waste of human potential.
If all people truly lived the life that Jesus called them to, would the world be at war or at peace?
"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it." (Matthew 10:34-39 NASB)
How many wars, how much suffering, has resulted from people fighting over what is truly living the life that Jesus called them to?
If everyone were a Nazi, or a Stalinist, or a Maoist, or if everyone absolutely submitted their will to Jim Jordan, or if we just gave everyone a lobotomy or a lifetime supply of heroin, would the world be at war or at peace? Who cares?
"Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." (Mark 10:21)
ReplyDeleteSeems like a simple, unambiguous declarative sentence. You obviously haven't sold your computer, Jim.
Jim Jordan,
ReplyDeleteYou being into sharp focus the exact quandary I find myself in. What IF people lived “the life Jesus called them to”? Therein is the problem. Some believe Jesus justified slavery, and hence, the “life” Jesus appropriately called them to is that of a slave master. Some believe Jesus justifies discrimination, and the life Jesus called them to endorses it.
We can look back at the Tanakh and see people claiming the life Jesus (God) called them to involved genocide and rape…er…”forced marriage.”
You see, due to the varying authors viewpoints regarding Jesus, and the legends developed by those authors for the communities they were writing to, we end up with very different Jesus’ people can claim to follow. I would never want to wipe out the belief of the person following Jesus by not calling another person a name. Matt. 5:22. But what of the person who justifies calling someone an “ass” because Jesus called the Pharisees a name? Matt. 23:17. That belief warrants removal.
As the Barefoot Bum points out—some may follow a Jesus who divides families. Some follow a Jesus who loves his enemies. Luke 6:35. Some even justify deceit, by claiming Jesus does it.
In the end, people do what they want, how they want, and merely place a stamp of “Jesus did it” on it, thinking this will provide approval.
How do you respond to people who claim the Life Jesus called them to involves homosexuality? You think such people are “wrong.” Yet I, as a Christian, would have claimed you were wrong to believe Jesus called you to a life of calling others an “ass.” See, Christians are constantly pointing out to other Christians how they are living the “correct” Jesus but the other person is living the “wrong” Jesus.
What you are really saying is “What if people lived a life according to the life I believe Jesus called them to.” It is that they all follow Jim Jordan’s Jesus.
I am glad you found self-improvement within Christianity. I just wish you would set your sights higher. Christians want to be “as good” as Jesus. I think they could be better. They hope to live by the Golden Rule—I strive to live by the Platinum. I think Christians are settling by only being as good as the stories of Jesus.
I don't know if you saw the "South Park" two-parter last year called "Go, God, Go!" in which Cartman is transported five hundred years into the future and awakes to a world where religion no longer exists. It is, however, rocked by a fierce war between the United Atheist League, the United Atheist Alliance and the Allied Atheist Allegiance. This war apparently erupted over what the atheists of the world should call themselves. A lot of "Science damn it!" and "Science be praised!" and "For the love of Science!" ensues.
ReplyDeleteAn added bonus for all y'all who hate Richard Dawkins: it shows him in a very, very awkward and compromising situation (not suitable for those under 17).
I like to think, along with SP creators Trey Parker and Matt Stone, that human nature is such that we will always find an excuse to fight with each other. Religious wars, however, do tend to be the nastiest ones of all, no matter which religion is used as the excuse.
Now that's a Calvinist outlook on life! ;-)
**What you are really saying is “What if people lived a life according to the life I believe Jesus called them to.” ***
ReplyDeleteI saw a comment like this on another blog, in terms of the Bible. Whenever we say, "The Bible says," what we really mean is "[My interpretation of] The Bible says." Only the first three words are left unsaid.
** I just wish you would set your sights higher. Christians want to be “as good” as Jesus. I think they could be better.**
Is such a thing truly possible, though, in a religion that tells how bad/sinful/evil/depraved a person is, and can do no good works on their own? One of the things that does drive me away from conservative Christianity is the idea that we are beings who deserve hell and the concept that it is wrong to do things on one's own, or to essentially have independence. If you ever do anything good, it's not you who does it, it's God/Jesus within you. But if you do something bad, then you get all the credit.
No parent would ever wish this for their child. A good parent does hope that the child reaches independence, and learns to do things on his/her own. The parent's responsiblity is to raise an ethical child, who can then handle that individuality.
But how are they supposed to be better than Jesus when they're constantly told they can't even reach the level of Jesus in the first place? Or that all their works are as filthy rags?
I loved that SP episode. And I have mixed feelings in general about SP.
ReplyDeleteThe one where Cartman starts a Christian Band was terrific, too. "Love Jesus, in Love with Jesus, what's the difference? Are you saying you're not in love with Jesus?"
Sounds like I need to catch up on my South Park episodes. It is a brilliant show - my favorite character is Mr. Hanky the Christmas Poo.
ReplyDeleteDagoods, I think Jesus' short fuse with the Pharisees of the day was due to the fact that they were supposed to be representing God but instead made a mess of it. It's quite analogous to the Pat Robertsons and Prosperity Pimps of today's church [I could see Robertson calling for Jesus' crucifixion - just as he prayed for vacancies on the Supreme Court while giving his tacit approval were some liberal judge to pass away]. I think Jesus' rebuke of the religious folks was recorded that way as a warning to those who do put their personal interests in first place. This is where interpretations really go awry.
Jesus was angry because these folks were bastardizing his name, like so many Christians do today.
Quote:
ReplyDelete"I'm a little confused. I'd like to find the approximate dollar amount of Christian charity worldwide. I do not think its a little number."
And this would prove what exactly? While you're at it, "find the approximate dollar amount of [Muslim] charity worldwide." I think if we were to start analyzing both "charities" we would find more investment than "charity."
I think Jesus' short fuse with the Pharisees of the day was due to the fact that they were supposed to be representing God but instead made a mess of it.
ReplyDeleteBut who is the "True Christian", and who is the "Pharisee"? I'm sure the Pharisees thought they were representing God, and Jesus was the one making a mess of things.
There's no way to tell, no way to break the symmetry. This is what I mean by the notion of "God" being meaningless: It's just content-free sloganeering bolstering its supporters' sanctimoniousness.
I will admit to my own sanctimony, but at least my own is honest: It's what I want; I don't try to pass my moral buck to "God".
DagoodS - I am new to this blog and would like to know your story. You said:
ReplyDeleteI had Christianity ripped from mine, and I cannot claim it as a pleasant experience. I do not recall a single deconvert referring to it as a “breeze.” It hurts. It is painful. And while it made me a better person…would it everybody?
What's the background here? Do you have a previous post that details this?
Thanks.
Justmatt,
ReplyDeleteThanks for stopping by! *wave*
I wrote a 13-part story outlining my background and deconversion starting Here. At the end of each blog entry is a link to the next chapter.
WARNING. I am a bit long-winded. Hopefully each one is interesting enough within itself to keep you plodding through it
Thanks DagoodS! Look forward to the read.
ReplyDelete